The twists and turns of France’s recent election have ended with a surprise majority for the New Popular Front, a hastily cobbled together left coalition running the gamut from the Communists to the Greens. The NFP’s unexpected triumph turned the early success of the far-right National Rally in the first round of the election on its head. But the right in France is far from defeated, and whether the NFP can hold its ground, or expand its influence from here, remains to be seen. Axel Persson, general secretary of the CGT Railway Workers Union in Trappes, joinsThe Marc Steiner Showfor a postmortem of the election, the challenges that remain ahead for the French left, and what lessons can be learned by observers from around the world.
Studio Production: Cameron Granadino
Post-Production: Alina Nehlich
Transcript
The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.
Marc Steiner:
Welcome to the Marc Steiner Show here on the Real News. It’s great to have you all with us again. As we all know, France just went to the polls, but first let me tell you, I’m home a bit under the weather. We have to get this program out given what just happened in France. Bear with me if the sound quality is not as great as we always have it. But it’s an important conversation and nobody thought this was going to happen. Everybody thought Le Pen and the right would win this election.
The right would take over France, but the people had a different idea. And this election in France, the left coalition made up the Socialist Party, the Communist Party, the Ecologists or the Greens, created something like a 1930s Popular Front that they did then to combat Nazism and the right, demand worker rights in during the depression. Now a new Popular Front has taken over and taken up that mantle and all the disparate groups in the left in France and together to stop the right wing from taking power. And this left wing coalition is there. We’ll see what happens in the future. And we are joined now by Axel Persson who is a train driver in France, General Secretary of the CGT Railroad Workers Union in Montreuil, in a suburb of Paris. And Axel, excuse me, good to have you with us.
Axel Persson:
Thank you. Happy to be with you.
Marc Steiner:
And you’re joining us from Sweden.
Axel Persson:
I’m actually joining from Sweden because I’m actually on holidays for 11 coming days. I left this morning for Sweden.
Marc Steiner:
Welcome. Glad you could join us.
Axel Persson:
Thank you.
Marc Steiner:
This really was in many ways, absolutely unprecedented. People did not think this was going to happen. Talk a bit about what you think happened and how and why the left went beyond what people expected to happen.
Axel Persson:
The very name Popular Front that was used to define this broad alliance between the Social Democrats, the Communist Party, the Green Party, and also one of the biggest parties on the left nowadays that is called [foreign language 00:02:03] in French, which would translate into the Unbounded Rebellious France, came together of course using this very politically charged name of Popular Front because it refers to a very specific period in French history in the 1930s and of course different situations but similar dynamics where the far right was on the rise and also on the verge of taking power. They decided to come together, unite in order to prevent them from seizing state power at least through the means of election. It was a direct reference to that period of history in order to mark as heavily as possible in the collective conscience that this is what was at stake here right now.
And of course it worked to some extent. And I must add also that this is not only a coalition of political parties, it’s also a coalition that includes, for example, trade unions such as mine, the CGT, the General Confederation Labor, which is the oldest trade union in France. And also groups like anti-fascist groups which joined the front of feminist organizations, anti-racist organizations and different movements such as, for example, Jewish, anti-Zionist organizations that joined the Popular Front in order to unite on a platform that of course made many compromises on various issues. But that defined a minimal frame into which one could form an agreement in order to prevent and go to the polls and prevent the far right from seizing power, which worked, at least for now. And I’m saying this at least for now, because even though the Popular Front managed to prevent the far right from gaining the most seats in parliament and the Popular Front is the coalition that has the most seats in parliament, it neither has its own majority.
And it cannot hide the fact that despite this, the far right has grown in French society and this election, even though they didn’t gain as much seats as they hoped for, does confirm that they’re on an upwards trend and that their ideas have been deeply rooted in French society, which means that unless we manage to switch the tide and turn it backwards, it’s just a matter of time because they managed to seize power. This is an alert, it worked this time. The Popular Front tactic worked this time, but it also gives us high responsibilities in order to seize this opportunity where we managed to prevent them from seizing power to transform it into hope. Because in the end, just preventing them from seizing power is not a political program in itself that could satisfy the large swath of the working class and the population in general.
What we need to do now is take the offensive back, gain the ground we’ve lost, gain back the ground we’ve lost and go on the offensive. And us as a trade union, what we are saying now is that the only issue at hand for us is to organize massively and use the weapons of our collective class, which are strikes, insurrections, demonstrations, because those are the only way into which we’ll be able to transform the society, not institutional politics, even though we do not underestimate importance of elections. But in the end, that is not what is going to change radically the lives of the people who are demanding this desperate change in order to live in a better world to put things simply. That is our task at hand, which is actually the most difficult part. It’s not the elections that were the most difficult, it’s actually what’s coming now.
Marc Steiner:
Let me just say, Axel you said so much here. Let me see if I can get some of it out and I can see why you’re one of the leaders of the movement. But let’s first of all talk about, one of the things you said was how the right has grown and how they have a powerful base in France, talk about for all of our people listening about the political struggle in France and why the right is so strong and why the surge as it has in the United States, as it has in India, as it has in lots of places, but what’s the French story? Why is there such a surge on the right?
Axel Persson:
There’s many explanations of course. The first one being of course, that the far right is being financed and fueled by very powerful forces in French society. For example, there is a very, very famous, one of the most powerful billionaires in French society who is called Vincent Bollore, who is a CEO of an industrial empire who has for the past decade now methodically bought up massive amount of medias within the written press, television, radios, and is now actually pushing and lobbying for the privatization of the public media in order to be able to privatize them and has managed to push through this campaign and a massive amount of media campaigning, pushing basically far right theories, shifting the blame that working people can lay on the issues that facing, such as housing crisis, low wages, layoffs in factories, even in security. Everything, everything, everything, literally, there’s no exception to it, is being linked to issues such as immigration, ethnicity or sometimes even religion.
And that is a massively coordinated campaign that is being fund and financed by very powerful forces in French society who have a right wing agenda. But the fact also that it has succeeded because that is not the only factor is also because of the weakness actually of the organized left, even though it’s stronger than in other countries, the fact that for example, the Social Democratic Party, even the Communist Party have been in power most notably in the eighties and nineties and even actually in 2012, have repeatedly failed and disappointed vast sections of the working class when they were in power implementing policies that were against the working classes or even sometimes pushing racist policies.
I’m thinking particularly about the Social Democratic Party, which has led to a massive disillusion in politics, which has given way to this far right that much like in the US actually where we have this quite absurd situation where billionaires, because it’s literally billionaires like Trump for example, as you have in the US who are billionaires from the system, the establishment, and who managed to portray themselves as the anti-system candidates, which is quite absurd when you see where they’re coming from and how they’re being funded.
But that is basically the dynamics into which… And they’re managing to tap into the sentiment a large portion of the society here through that. And one of the things also another pillar by that is that we used to have in France the biggest, the strongest communist party in the entire industrial world, which meant that it was not only strong electorally, it was also strong in society, in the grassroots, it controlled large neighborhoods, it controlled cities. And within these cities they had organized a complete counter society by controlling unions, controlling sport clubs, controlling all these associations that would help people with housing issues, even homework, everyday problems.
And as this Communist Party participated in governments that disappointed large section of the class, this party progressively started its downhill phase and not disappeared, but got very, very weakened. And this whole counter society that managed to basically fight this narrative in the working class neighborhoods has been weakened a lot, which has given a leeway to the far right that has managed to tap in into those communities that used to be organized by the communist movement and are now having a much easier time to basically dive into the collective psyche of the workers than that we had before.
Marc Steiner:
Just from your responses to the questions I ask, I can see we could spend days here, we don’t have days to spend, but I would like to probe that a little bit more deeply because one of the things I thought about in watching what was happening in France in this election is that it is emblematic of the struggle across the globe.
Axel Persson:
Yes.
Marc Steiner:
I’d like to hear your analysis as someone who’s been a union activist, who’s been fighting in the political struggles in France, why you think, what your analysis is about why the left seems to have come apart, has lost power in its way? Even though in France itself, you built this coalition that won the election, or at least you had more votes than anybody else in the election, that’s almost unprecedented since the thirties to be able to put that broad liberal left and left coalition together to stop the right. Tell me, I just want to hear your answer why you think the left is having so much problem and B, what do you think that holds for the future?
Axel Persson:
What it holds for the future is that of course what made basically the left in this particular situation, and not only the political left, even the trade unions and all these associations that took part, that are part of the Popular Front is the weight of history and the conscious and this very strong historical conscience of what happened last time when fascists were in power. That is something that is shared amongst the broad left, despite all our differences because the lessons from the thirties basically were drawn that, we might have a very, very vocal and very severe disagreements, very passionate disagreements amongst us on issues that are very important, such as, for example, Palestine is an issue that are currently going now, the war in Ukraine, even the pension reform on matters of internal French politics on all issues. But in the end of the day, we know that the fascists, they don’t care about our difference.
They will basically smash all of us. They will put us in prison, they will attack us all. They didn’t actually, the groups, they don’t discriminate in between us, they attack us all widely. We don’t have a chance, we don’t have any other choice but to unite in order to fight for survival. And that is something that is very ingrained in the political conscious. But the reason why also we are in a weaker position that when we were before though, is the fact that this collective counter society, this collective political ideal, that another society is actually within reach, that we can build it, that we can transform through collective radical struggles, has been abandoned by many of the political leadership of the historical left who has traded it for institutional politics, which has left many disappointed. And that is not only the case in France, it has been the case in the UK, it has been the case in the US, it has been the case in many, many parts of the world.
And this whole ideal that we can change the world to make it a better place by overthrowing the current system is something that is not being taught or nothing being vaculated in our structures and our unions and our political parties anymore. It is nowadays being done again, which is giving more hope. But it is something that is vital because the far right prospers on the despair of the working people. And that is something we need to do is be able to give a perspective and a hope that we can actually change this world.
Marc Steiner:
As a union man helping to run the union and as a political activist, how do you see that happening? Right now we don’t know what’s going to happen inside the parliament. It could be just an archic madness happening inside of the parliament in France because nobody has a majority.
Axel Persson:
Exactly.
Marc Steiner:
That’s A. Let me stop here, let me hit that. What do you think is going to happen? Then I’ll come back to the question about organizing for the future. What do you think is going to happen in the coming weeks and months given the absolute divide and split in France as shown by this election?
Axel Persson:
The first maneuvers the establishment is going to make is going to try to divide the Popular Front amongst its more reformist elements and it’s more radical elements. They’re going to try, for example, what they call the central block, which is basically the critical block formed around President Emmanuel Macron’s block basically are going to try, for example, to convince parts of the Popular Front, such as the Social Democrats or the Greens, to join their block in a coalition that would basically implement liberal policies with him. And in exchange of course for things like ministries or different positions within the state and machine, I’m not sure that’s going to work because the pressure is so high on the Popular Front within the working class and within the popular neighborhoods within our communities that anybody who leaves the Popular Front in exchange for this are going to get basically a very violent backlash from it.
And what we are saying as union members is that there is no hope to gain from institutional politics, what has always worked in France, but all across the countries in the world, in general world, there’s a working class is only, and there’s only one thing that works, it’s when we go on strike, it’s when we go on general strikes. It’s when we organize a corrective upheaval of our forces. And we’ve proved it in the past, we proved it. And I’m not talking about the past that happened like 150 years ago. I’m talking about something that happened a few months ago. For example, in very concrete example in my industry last year we won a general strike with all other workers to defend our pension issues. We refused to go back to work. We continued it even this year and we won an agreement just a few months ago that basically secured my right solving, my right, to retire at 53 years old at full pension.
And that is possible, that was made possible, not because we voted right, it wasn’t made possible because we fought, organized, and made them cave in and made them bite the dust and not the other way around. What we are saying is that as workers, the only issue forward is not to trust in what’s going to happen in the institution, it’s what we’re going to do as workers organizing the workplace and using the most important weapon we have is to strike because that’s how you paralyze the economy. That’s how you force them to cave into your demands.
And it also demonstrates that without our labor, they can’t do anything. They can’t produce the profits they’re living on, they can produce their dividends and it just comes to prove that they’re the one needing us. We’re not the one needing them. And this is a very, very important political point that we need to make and that we’re basically hammering through now and even within the institutions, in order to force institutions to bow down to our demands, we have to force them through our collective struggles. This is the only line we’re pulling in all the workplaces now is that prepare for a strike, prepare for the general struggles now.
Marc Steiner:
How do you see then that playing out in the coming months? You said this, you have this broad coalition and there are some differences obviously inside these liberal left coalition that was built to stop the neo-fascist from taking power. How do you see all that, given what you just described as well, how do you see that playing out? What do you think will happen over the next few months?
Axel Persson:
There’s two options. If there is no massive mobilization within the popular neighborhoods, within the workplaces, within the unions, it’ll end up, unfortunately, as it will always end up, when we don’t force them to go into our demands, it’ll end up in tactical alliances within different parties into the institutions, which will just lead to further disillusionment and disappointment. That is what will happen. But on the other hand, what may happen is that if this gives only a regained, a renewed sense of hope and people take to the streets, take to the fight basically in all the places in society, whether it be the universities, the workplaces, the neighborhoods, everywhere basically, even the high schools, if people start mobilizing mastery through demonstrations, occupations, and strikes, which we have proved we can do in a very recent future, then things might change for real.
And this is also why the name Popular Front is important because of course in the history in France, the name Popular Front refers to the government that was formed in 1936 and is associated in French social and political history with major social advances such as paid holidays, collective agreements, reduced working hours, the eight-hour working day, et cetera, et cetera.
And also trade union rights. But what one must not forget is that most of the things that were gained in 1936 were not even on the political platform on which the Popular Front parties on 1936 went to elections with. What happened was that there was a general strike in June 1936 that lasted for months in which major, all the factories in France occupied by the workers. And after one month’s long strike, the employers and the government were then forced to sign an agreement which gave all these advances and social rights, which we benefit still from today. And that’s what we are saying, we are saying, “Yeah, we revived the Popular Front, we revived the coalition, basically the electric coalition, what we need to arrive now is what made it really interesting.” It was a general strike that followed, and this may sound a bit very simplistic, but there is no other way actually, people are saying something else are just lying.
Marc Steiner:
When you have a country like France and like the United States that are so deeply divided among the people, we have an election coming up and people on the left they go, “We despise Biden, we can’t vote for Biden.” But then again, you don’t want the neo-fascist to take over the United States. That would be a disaster for our country and the planet. In France, how do you maintain this coalition and really seize power so it can’t be pushed out?
Axel Persson:
The fact is that we know that for the next year, the president does not dispose of the faculty to dissolve the parliament. We know that for the coming year, basically the parliament is going to stay at least for a year. But the thing is that-
Marc Steiner:
What does that mean? We just had this election in France and you’re saying the president has the power to not allow it to take power, to take their seats, to change. [inaudible 00:19:18].
Axel Persson:
It’s a very peculiar power the French president has is that the French president has the faculty to what they call to dissolve the parliament if for example, is what he just did, for whatever reason, he can decide that the parliament is no longer session and new elections are being held. But he can only do that once a year maximum. He can’t do it like every day either. And what I’m saying also is that in the absence of a majority in parliament, because neither block has a majority, the constitution wasn’t really tailored for such a situation. We don’t know what’s going to happen because it wasn’t tailored for that. And we’re going to find out in the coming weeks what strategy Macron and the other parties are going to have. I can’t really speculate on that because this is quite new basically in French political society.
But what we do know though is that they’re quite intent on not letting the program of the Popular Front being implemented. They’ve been very clear on that. What we’re going to have to do, and I’m always coming back to these fundamentals, is that this coalition was good in the sense that it prevented the far right from getting a majority of the seats in parliament. But it doesn’t mean we have ceased power as workers. When I’m going back to work after my 11 days of holidays, my bosses will still be there. They will still be holding the power over me in the workplaces. The banks will still be owned by the same owners who will still dispose of the same power. And what we are saying to the people and the workers listening to us is that is where the real power lies and that is the power we need to seize.
It’s that power we need to target. I’m not trying to avoid your question. I’m just saying that what we are saying as union now is that the only way to direct our strength and level our collective strength at those who hold the real power is to paralyze and shut down the economy. And I will say this because you mentioned a very divided country. It’s true that it is divided. But what we have shown in the past, for example, last year when we were on the pension strike Macron, and this is part of the reason he actually lost these elections, tried to implement pension reform that will raise the general retirement age to 64 for the general public. And when we went on strike and the society was massively paralyzed by our strikes, and this was a strike that was very massively supported by the working class and the population in general, even their own polls showed that more than nine out of 10 working people supported our strikes, which means that even those who voted for the far right supported it, which means that there is common ground because we have common interests.
And it is only in these periods when we managed to mobilize on our interests, on our objectives, with our methods, that actually the far right disappears from the political scene for a while because that is the only time in society where we actually managed to unite. And actually everybody unites behind our banner, including people who vote for the far right and who are confused. This is why we’re saying this is a path forward. It’s not necessarily only electoral politics. It is to manage to build mobilizations that unite us around common interests. And that is our role as a trade union and that is what we can do. That is why our responsibility is so important because we’re the only force that can actually and manage to do that.
Marc Steiner:
That to me, before we have to go on, I know we have lots to do today. That to me is very fascinating because what you’re saying is you have to organize and keep pushing. You’ve got this huge number of people in the parliament, but the issue is organizing the people which also can bring in the right. And it makes me think about decades back when I was probably closer to your age and organizing, we organized a right wing racist neighborhood in coalition with a black neighborhood to fight for their rights both on the docks and also in terms of housing rights.
Axel Persson:
Exactly.
Marc Steiner:
And you’re saying that that’s the same approach seems you’re taking in your strategic thinking about how you build on this and not allow the right to come back.
Axel Persson:
Exactly. That’s the key to it. Because at the end of the day, even if it’s very difficult to admit because what some of these people are saying when we’re talking about society is very difficult to hear sometimes when we’re discussing it’s very racist series, it’s extremely violent. But at the end of the day, even if they ignore it, and it’s not about being paternalistic or anything or condescending, even if they ignore it, they as workers have the same interest as the other workers, regardless of their skin color, regardless of their gender, regardless of their religion, even if they ignore it, they do have the same interest. And they actually do realize it only in periods where we as unions managed to mobilize the entire French society around our common objectives. And we proven that this is not like an abstract theory. When we go on massive strikes for pension issues, they support us.
And that is actually the moment where they actually join people they theoretically hate when they vote. That’s the only time of the year basically where they actually join and fight with them. And that is in these moments where we can build beyond abstract discussions, we can build concrete common mobilizations and make their consciousness evolve into something more progressive basically. And for example, right now many workers are facing issues such as insufficient wages to meet their needs, their daily needs or housing problems. Some of them will say for example, that the housing problems are due to immigrants taking better housing or that lower wages are due to immigrants doing it for lower wages and whatever. But at the end of the day, when we manage to organize mobilizations for decent housing in the neighborhoods or high wages through strikes, that is a moment where we actually manage to unite them where they can meet or what can discuss.
And that is where I’ve seen personally political consciousness evolve. And that is why we’re insisting and joins what you said yourself about when you organize these type of neighborhoods back in the days, it’s the only moment where actually political consciousness involved when they can actually become allies. But it’s actually the most important task we have at hand is to manage how to unite our class around its class objectives and make the clash consciousness rise again. Basically that is the task at hand because that is what is lacking the most in order to rebuild not only the Popular Front, but rebuild basically a capable organization that are capable to overthrow the society because divided we fall.
Marc Steiner:
That’s wonderful. I almost want to end it there, but one really last quick question, let you go back to the family is that I’m curious in all the work you’ve done as a union leader, organizer, leading strikes, organizing people and helping to build this Popular Front that really stopped the right wing onslaught for now, for this moment, where do you think it goes from here? Where do you think the next couple of months, which will be very critical, will take it?
Axel Persson:
It’s going to be very critical because if we fail, basically what happened now needs to be translated into tangible results for working people in the coming period. I’m not saying the coming day or the coming weeks, but it needs to be translated into tangible results for the working class. Because if it doesn’t, this will just mean that the far right will be able to, even if there was a bit delayed, but will only delay the ascension to power because they will be able to tap into that sentiment that, “All of these politicians, all of these forces are rotten and in the end of the day they betray us and they don’t provide and they don’t live up to the promises they made.”
And basically people will resort to forces that actually promise to crush us because that is what they’re doing. The far right, the promise is not only to crushes, of course the most known part is crushing immigrants or just discriminating against blacks or LGBTs, you name it, they do it, but they also, and it’s something they less publicize, is also about how they promise to cross the trade unions in France, which is one of the pillars of fascism.
And what we need to go from here is to make sure that our mobilization, that we manage to force the Popular Front to stay true to its program and also that our mobilization manages to prevent all the other parties from stopping the program from being implemented. That’s why I’m always coming back to the basics. Back to the basics. The only social force that can save the working class is the working class itself. There is no supreme savior, it is only us, through our mobilization that can force this to happen because we are the one who make all the cogs of societies, all the wheels of societies turn. Without us, nothing works. There will be no train, there will be no fuel, there will be no electricity if we decide to withdraw labor. We hold the power, we just need to gain the conscious that we have it and that we need to use this in order to crush them, in order to prevent them from crushing us.
This will need a broad alliance from anti-racist organizations, trade unions, feminist organization, anti-colonialist organizations such as those that are involved in the struggle for the liberation of Palestine because we all share the same and common enemy, which is the capitalist state. And if we managed to unite in all our fights in order to deal a common blow at our common enemies, that is how we will rebuild the class consciousness and build a potent force that is capable of bringing down the society and not only bringing it down, but heralding a new hope for millions of people who are just craving for something to hope for.
Marc Steiner:
Axel Persson, I want to thank you so much for taking the time today on your break on holiday in Sweden. This has been a really interesting conversation. I look forward to having more conversations as we cover what’s happening in France because I think it’s emblematic and a story for all the people struggling for equitable society across us the globe need to hear, especially here in the United States where I live. Again, Axel, thank you for your work, thanks for your time and we’ll be staying in touch.
Axel Persson:
Thank you very much.
Marc Steiner:
Once again, thank you to Axel Persson for joining us today. And thanks to Cameron Granadino for running the program and our audio editor, Alina Nelah and the tireless Kayla Rivara for making it all work behind the scenes. And everyone here at The Real News for making this show possible. Please let me know what you thought about you heard today, what you’d like us to cover. Just write to me at mss@therealnews.com and I’ll get right back to you. Once again, thank you to the Axel Persson for joining us today, and we’ll be bringing you more about France and the struggle against the right and the fight for the future and bring more people, bring Axel back and other folks who are in the midst of that struggle that have a lot to say to us about the future. For the crew here at The Real News, I’m Marc Steiner. Stay involved and keep listening.
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